Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

[rsadelle]

So, I run this list. It's not the only Metallica slash out there. There are people on metslash who aren't on the list that dare not speak its name, and vice versa. There are some people on both lists. Most of the people who are no mail and/or lurkers on metslash are on both lists. Most of the people who post fic are only on metslash.

Every time I remind people about our archiving policies, I remind them that crossposting is okay. It is possible to post a fic to a list without granting archiving permission. I know that some of the people on both lists are writers. I know that some of them are extremely good writers. I know that they've posted fic to the other list. And yet, with the exception of one author and one story by a second author, none of them post to metslash.

Why not?

Is it because we don't automatically jump up and down and say, "Oh, you're so wonderful, that was the best story ever, when are you writing the sequel?" to every piece of fic that gets posted? Is it because I actually dare to say what I don't like about fic? I only wish someone would critique my fic the way I've critiqued other people's fic. Well, the more recent stuff anyway; I know just how bad some of my older fic is. Isn't that far more useful to you as a writer than unconditional praise for every word you write?

Or perhaps, like one person who recently unsubbed, they don't like it that I dare say that I don't like some of the writing and list policies of the other list. Apparently the fact that all three S's and various other people from the other list have said extremely negative things about metslash and me in their journals and journal comments is completely irrelevant.

Not that I'm bitter.

Comments

Bitter? Us?

[minette.livejournal.com]

I love that whole 'tread carefully lest we say something that someone doesn't like or agree with' mentality that seems to exist in certain RPS fandoms, most noticeably in Metallica. Heaven forbid that we dare to say something that goes against the established mindset of the fandom. Besides, we all know that we're supposed to only think what other people think and, if the listmom says it, then it must be true.

I think critiquing a story--pointing out what works and what doesn't, and why it does or does not--is one of the most valuable things a writer can get. I like getting the 'it was great' comments, but I value the 'this was good, but this would have been better' comments as well. How can I improve my writing skills if I don't know what I did wrong?

As for criticizing the other list, well, we all know that it's wrong and mean to say anything negative about their writing or policies. After all, we should all be nice to them and just agree with everything they say and can't we all just get along?

And despite the many epithets hurled at metslash and you, we should all remember that they just criticized the writing, not us personally, she said sarcastically. I mean, it's not like they called everyone who moved to metslash 'crones', or referred to you as a 'bitch', and inferred that you were leading me around by the nose, or anything of that nature.

Why, I do believe that I am not bitter along with you. How fun.

Hmmm....

[zillahcross.livejournal.com]

As one who falls into the 'member of both, posting fic to one' category, I felt like I needed to comment on this *g*

I came in after the whole 'list split' thing. I don't know the whole story, and have come to the conclusion that I don't really care. Nothing to do with me, and that's why I resubbed to Metslash and intend to post fic to both lists.

As far as crit goes, I'm fine with it. I have a beta in another fandom who doesn't hesitate to point out any and all errors, plot point fuck ups, and things that just don't sound right, and I love it. Breeds improvement.

List politics? I'm Switzerland... *g*

Re: Hmmm....

[rsadelle]

I think that if you weren't involved, you probably should be neutral. You get the benefits of both lists with none of the stress. But, you see, I'm enough of a paranoid egomaniac to think that people don't post to metslash because it's the list that I started.

Please do post away. You can also post things that have already been posted to the other list. Remember that those of us on metslash only have had no chance to read them, which is why I think that the list that dare not speak its name's archive hiding policy is so horribly unfair to readers who want to read without being on that list and to writers who may want wider exposure for their fic.

[absolutelyvile.livejournal.com]

"I know that some of the people on both lists are writers. I know that some of them are extremely good writers. I know that they've posted fic to the other list. And yet, with the exception of one author and one story by a second author, none of them post to metslash.

Why not?"

As one of those belongs-to-both-but-is-silent-on-one members, I feel the need to speak up about *why* I stay silent on Metslash.

The initial reason for my silence was this: I got the impression during the split that you and Melle disliked me. My attempts to speak to either of you seemed to be ignored and any e-mail or post I sent wasn't replied to. [Sidenote: The unanswered e-mails seems to be a fluke, since Melle says she answered them (and I believe her... my mail isn't all that trustworthy.)] Plus, as a friend of Spooky, I reacted negatively to all the criticism that seemed to be focused not on the Tallific policies but on Spooks herself, thus leaving little desire on my part to join the Metslash chat sessions. (At this point, it is nice for everyone to claim that they only have issues with Whichever List They Oppose's policies, but I think its safe to say that chat and LJ entries make that statement seem a little ridiculous. Personal attacks have been rampant and I'm just as much a victim as I am a culprit.)

The reason that I am still silent (after having realized that this moronic "Let's ignore Rox!" conspiracy was all in my head) is that twice I have posted fic to Metslash and both times I didn't receive a single word of acknowledgement. I wasn't looking for an, "I loved it, where's the sequel?" comment. I wasn't deeply concerned about any sort of feedback. Yet the fact that no one said a single thing led me to beleive either a) no one read the damn thing or b) they didn't care enough about it to say anything. Thus, why post more, if either no one likes my writing or no one read it? I'd have really appreciated a critical review as well, since "Headline" is the only fic I'm actually proud of and would appreciate any feedback as to what I did right or, more importantly, what I did wrong so that I can avoid any future mistakes.

All in all, posting at Metslash has left a bad taste in my mouth. If I'm mistaken, let me know. I'd be more than happy to post some of my other pieces, short and pointless though they are.

[rsadelle]

Just because you're friends with Spooky doesn't mean you can't hang out with us. It's not like metslash chat is the official bitch about Spooky club. We have more interesting things to talk about, like how many celebrities we think Lars has fucked.

As for fic posting, as Melle always likes to say, "You are not your feedback." I do read everything that comes across metslash, and I'm sure there are other people who do as well. I only write feedback when I feel like I really have something to say about a story, and usually only when I have a lot to say about a story. Part of the point of metslash's existence is that no one is forced to post or to feedback, and no one is made to feel guilty if she doesn't write feedback. That doesn't mean we don't read things that are posted. I really can't speak for anyone else, but I would love to see more of your writing. I did read a dues story you had in your journal one day, and I was going to respond to it, but, by the time I got back from class, it was gone (unless the whole thing was a figment of my imagination in the first place). I'm not saying that just to placate you; it really is true.

Tis like this...

[caarirose.livejournal.com]

Why would I never even think of posting on Metslash?

Reason number one, Spooks is my beta. As much as you claim you are over it, 5 out of your last 7ish journal entry's are in some way formed to swipe at Spooks. Sorry but this leads me to think you are pety enough to pick holes in my fic, just because.

Sorry, my self asteam is fucked enough without you helping its down fall.

Reason two, you took great pleasure in picking holes in the pairing I am most comfortable with, without ever having read a damn word I've written. This reasures me exactly how? Dare I say I'm actually good at James/Kirk, you admire Teresa, listen to her comments about my fic.

It has nothing to do with people shouting encore! Ask anybody, I am convinced what I write is utter crap.

As far as I'm concerned, to a certain extent, you have cut your own throat.

Re: Tis like this...

[rsadelle]

Aren't you the same Carol who summarily unsubbed after telling us we were all stupid and needed to do research? While I appreciate any and all answers to my question, it seems like the question itself would be irrelevant in your case.

You're right; I don't like Spooks. But I don't fuck around when it comes to writing. If I were going to pick holes in something you wrote, it would be because I thought there were things wrong with it, not because Spooks is your beta.

I picked holes in James/Kirk as it was when I last read any of it, which is way back before Spooks chose to hide her archive from all and sundry. I want to read James/Kirk, but I don't want to read James/Kirk with the same old dynamic that's been done in half of all Metallica slash stories. Perhaps you are a good writer. Perhaps you do write different and more interesting dynamics. I wouldn't know, though, because, as you seem to delight in reminding me, I've never had the chance to read your work. I was not picking holes in James/Kirk as an inherently bad pairing, but rather I was picking holes in a dominant characterization of James/Kirk that I find uninteresting, unrealistic and far too limited in scope.

Don't be bitter...and don't blame it on us...

[(Anonymous)]

You know I found this very interesting...If you feel your list is failing due to lack of posting why blame us? Do you feel that we are standing there with whips and chains saying if you post on metslash we will fuck you over?

Not hardly...People usually post where they feel the most comfortable...and don't blame our archiving policy...its common on a lot of lists. People are free to post where they want too despite what you think or believe.

And face it...this was mostly a personal attack toward spooks not list policy...at least from My POV...but remember I'm the one being led around by the nose...Your exact words I believe.

Oh and BTW...you can hate us...talk about us in chat...grind us unto the ground...um...who gives a fuck. LOL...I find it odd that you are still so interested in what we do...even though you hate our policy's and us. So, feel free to do so if it makes you feel better. You seem determined to turn this into a war for some reason...instead of letting things go.

If you all don't comment and give feedback on fics, and your way of working a list is failin, It's not out fault.

How do you expect a list to survive if there is no participation and feedback...and discussion. If you can't foster that on your own list...please don’t blame us...it's childish.

Re: Don't be bitter...and don't blame it on us...

[rsadelle]

I think you're missing the point. I don't think my list is failing. I don't think my list policies are failing. I am somewhat frustrated because people aren't comfortable crossposting. Perhaps my question ought to have been, "Why don't people feel comfortable crossposting?"

I've never accused anyone of leading anyone else around by the nose. Nette has said that she resents the implication that I'm leading people around by the nose. I second that resentment.

If you don't give a fuck, why are you still reading my journal and commenting in it?

What I object to perhaps more than some of the list that dare not speak its name's list policies, although I object to those as general list policies, not as list policies specific to that list, is the list attitude that any potential criticism of Spooky, either as listmom or as a writer, is absolutely wrong and should not be voiced by anyone. No list, no listmom, and no writer should be uncriticizable.

Re: Don't be bitter...and don't blame it on us...

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

I knowI'm prolly taking this out of context, but don't tell us how to feel, okay? If we want to be bitter, we damn well can.

How do you expect a list to survive if there is no participation and feedback...

Just because we don't force feedback and participation, doesn't mean there is none. And frankly, I value spontaneous feedback and participation a lot more than forced one. Maybe I'm just weird that way.

Hmmmm...

[beanside.livejournal.com]

Well, as you've pointed out, I'm kinda the outsider here. I came in mostly after the split, and I'm not on both lists. I considered joining metslash, but two things stopped me. First, the thought of wife fic squicks me. I'm not saying that I think it should be outlawed, but for me, it steps over my moral line. Second, I don't like big lists. I don't have enough hours in the day as it is.

However, (and yes, I know this is probably going to characterize me as one of Spooks fawning zombie-clones) y'all seem to take this way too seriously.

All we're doing is trying to keep our list the way we like it. (Yes, we. No descision has been made without a vote, we're not running the fascist State Of Spooky over here.) It seems to be working pretty well so far for us. For US.

Now, as far as the comments on other LJ's...I'm afraid I don't see it. I mean, I see where MS has been mentioned, but honestly, the only outright attacks have come from here. (though, I'll admit, the bit about dues was funny as hell-I'm sure Spooks was flattered to think that she could scare Lars.) If we're all that horrible, why waste so much energy on us?

So, basically, I think what it boils down to is this: If you don't like the policies, don't be on the list. On the other hand, if your policies aren't getting you what you want,(ie, posts, good James/Kirk slash) maybe you need to rethink.

Re: Hmmmm...

[rsadelle]

Whether you're on metslash or merely perusing our archive, no one is going to tie you down and force you to read wife fic, and no one is going to make you feel guilty for not feedbacking any fic, wives or no wives. Our list is not as large, nor does it have as much traffic as the list that dare not speak its name.

If you read back far enough in people's journals, you'll find people saying that I'm a bitch who doesn't care about her list but has cronies who mislead people away from the list that dare not speak its name and onto metslash which is not geared to good fic. I find that highly insulting.

I'm glad you liked the dues bit. Spooks has said she liked it that someone called her a cult leader, so I would think she'd like that as well. However, what I heard was that someone nearly got in trouble over that snippet, which completely boggles the mind. I write what I want because I want to, not because anyone else prompts me to do it. I was insulted that whomever was enforcing this trouble thought that I write things at other people's urging.

As I said in response to Sel, I don't think my list policies are failing. My complaint about looking for good James/Kirk is somewhat directed at people on my list (although now some of us are writing James/Kirk, so that seems to be working out), but its also directed at anyone who's undertaking James/Kirk fic. I do hope that anyone who writes James/Kirk will attempt non-standard characterizations and plots. I also hope that people who write James/Kirk, or any other pairing, who know things about making webpages, like you, would put their fic up on their pages so that I can read it. My complaint about crossposting is a very selfish one, not only as a listmom who's worried about what's going on with her list, but also as a reader who wants to read any Metallica slash I can get my hot little hands on.

A few more miscellaneous thoughts that didn't fit elsewhere

[rsadelle]

As I said to Sel, one of the things I really hated about being on the other list was that any and all criticism or potential criticism of Spooks was, and apparently still is, seen as automatically evil, and I always felt like anyone who dared voice such criticism was also stuck with the stigma of being an evil person. I think perhaps the people who think that I'm really attacking Spooks are right in that any criticism of the other list's policies is an inherent criticism of Spooks because it's her list.

The fact that people have taken what I've said here, in my personal journal as me, as something that reflects upon my abilities and policies as listmom proves the point that the listmom's word has a lot of power, whether or not she's speaking in official listmom capacity. I may not personally like Spooks, but if she wanted to join metslash, I'd let her (and don't think I haven't wondered if she's one of the past or present lurkers; we've already established that I'm an egomaniac when it comes to metslash). One thing has nothing to do with the other. However, I think, at least this was true when I was on the other list, that Spooks' word becomes law, in deed if not in official list policy. Spooks said she didn't like and wouldn't feedback crossovers, which felt like it was the official listmom punishment for writing a crossover, so consequently people were less enthusiastic about crossovers, and I always felt like that was criticism of me not based on my actual writing ability but based on the fact that I dared write about something Spooks didn't like.

Spooks has written more Metallica fic than anyone else, and she was the first to do it, so her characterizations have become the norm in Metallica slash. I'm not saying this is unique to Metallica; it happens in all fandoms. Any breaking away from or criticism of that norm on the other list, however, is, or at least was, looked down upon because it went against Spooky. Or at least that's the way it always felt to me. Your experience may differ.

Carol pointed out that I've written a lot of journal entries about this recently. I've been angry and bitter for a long time. I still am. I just feel like now I can write about it without reliving the awfulness of the experience in all its nervous breakdown glory.

Gods, we're all devoting a lot of energy to this!

[beanside.livejournal.com]

Sorry, it just struck me as funny. Then again, I'm weird like that.

Just one or two little things I wanted to make sure got mentioned. The list policies were all voted on, and agreed upon by a fairly large majority of the members. This is probably why we're a little touchy about them. When you're attacking them, you're not criticising Spooks. You're criticising us.

So far, the policies are working for us. Your mileage may vary. Your polices work for you. Our mileage may vary.

We've had a few crossovers onlist, and it doesn't seem like anyone is putoff by anyone's lack of feedback. Actually, one of the recent ones probably got one of the better amounts of it, mainly because it scorched the monitor.

At one point, yeah, there probably was a lot of "Spooks-inspired" characterization. As you said, happens in any fandom, especially when it's young. For a while in wrestling fic, you'd have been hard pressed to find non-twink slash. (but that's another diatribe completely) That seems to have died down, though. It's not at all unusual to have one fic with Kirk as the total dom right above one with him as a nice femme sub these days.

I guess the last point I wanted to make is that, yes, a lot of us do get pissy about any attacks on Spooks. Pretty much all of us who replied consider her as friend first, listmom second. That's why we all got off our asses and joined the discussion. I'm sure you'd do the same if someone started going after a friend of yours(even if they had their reasons to think that
friend was a raging bitch)that person is still your friend, and you protect your friends, period.

Yeah, I think that covers everything I wanted to.

It's me Kris

[(Anonymous)]

Since my unsubbing seemed to have just really ticked you off, I'll just make MY voice heard here as well. I left soley because I refuse to be a part of a list that gets its kicks off of trashing another lists and their policies. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it simply smacks of jealousy and blatant immaturity. YOU are not on Tallific so what the heck does it matter to you WHAT her policies are???
What amazes me is that you try to come off as this wonderfully peaceful, mature, responsible adult. That your list is so wonderful because you allow lurkers. Newsflash: Trashing other lists and it's members is neither peaceful nor mature, and I'd expect better from someone that is supposed to be a "list mom" I think that is what disgusts me the most about you and your behavior.
Moreover, to just clarify this situation about me leaving, I joined metslash, met Liz and she pointed me in the direction of tallific as she knew that I was not happy with metslash. For that, I'm more grateful then you could ever imagine. You may not agree with the way Spooky runs her list, but let me tell you, not one person on there is a snob, and more the 3 people post on a regular basis. I've made some really wonderful friends over there, and I've not even been there a month. To me, that says a hell of a lot more about tallific then metslash.
And most importantly, I actually feel ENCOURAGED to write for that list. I'm currently working on something now, and am actually looking foward to having Spooky beta it. Why? Because when it comes to critique, she is the most blatantly honest person I know. She will be more then happy to tell me if it's great..just the same as she'll tell me it stinks like last weeks garbage.
There's my .02

Re: It's me Kris

[rsadelle]

Apparently the point that this is my journal as Ruth Sadelle Alderson the person and not the journal of the metslash listmom has gotten lost in translation. This is not official metslash policy. This is how I, as a reader of Metallica slash and a former member of tallific, feel about things.

I'm glad you're happy on tallific. Despite what tallific people seem to believe, I'm not talking about this and I didn't start metslash out of some mean and spiteful urge to mess up their list. If you weren't happy on metslash, then leaving was the right thing to do. What bothers me about it is that you seem to think I am metslash. That's not true. I'm only one of 56 people on the list. I was unhappy on tallific long ago, and I left that list. I bitch about it because it still bothers me, and because this is my personal journal and I can talk about whatever I want to in it. You're doing the same thing. Good for you. Bitch about metslash if it makes you angry. Leave the list if you hate it. I did the same thing.

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

I am bitter, very bitter. Not because of the actual break-up and the fight that followed from it, because looking back on it, that was a case of people parting ways, and I know I could and should have handled that differently than I did.

At this point, I feel the need to elaborate a little on why I unsubbed, because a lot of people still seem to think I'm co-moderator of metslash. This. Is. Not. So. When Ruth started metslash, I joined, because hey, it was [is] a Metallica slash list, and it allowed some things that tallific didn't, so by subbing to both lists, I'd get all or at least most stories.

I was, at that point, bothered about a number of tallific's policies, both official and unofficial ones, but I didn't talk about it, because the general list atmosphere seemed to indicate that no one would agree with me.

Then came the archiving policy. Looking back, I realise maybe I should've emailed the moderators informing them of my pov, namely that metlash was not a 'mirror list' of tallific, and that I thought the policy was ridiculous. Instead, I just said screw it and unsubbed. And yes, I was blunt about it. Yes, I said a lot of things I shouldn't've said. That was then, and I'm not bitter about that.

What I'm bitter about is the assumption that is very clear in all these comments, that metslash 'works' the same way tallific does -- or at least did when I left.

This may be a shock to some people, but none of us bitter ex-tallificcers are spouting off venomous lies about The Other List. If someone asks, I will try to give them my pov of what happened, clearly warning them this is all my side of the story and yours is prolly different, and just as valid. I don't go around telling people about "this other list, who are sooooooo evil because of thisnthat," and in fact I prefer not to get newbies dragged into this whole mess.

Also, when Ruth and I were having a fight, this had no effect on metslash, nor did it make Ruth an evil, overbearing bitch, or any of us her [abandoning] 'cronies'. We were having a one-against-one fight, and the fact that Spooky somehow concluded that meant the list was falling apart, and called me a 'follower', hurt me deeply.

What I'm also bitter and angry about is the fact that a lot of you apparently cannot make the distinction between criticism and bashing, between 'bashing' a listmom as a person and 'bashing' her list policies, between 'bashing' the dominant way of writing a certain pairing and 'bashing' that pairing and all that like it, etc. etc. etc.

[More in follow-up, because LJ won't let me post this in its entirety.]

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

Sel --

Well...first of all in reference to the leading and collar comment. It was told to me my at least three different people, at different times. It was said in chat, and these people felt I didn't deserve it.

Do you mean someone told this to you in chat, or that they claim it was said in chat? If it's the former, please ask these people where they saw this, because I can't recall [or imagine] Ruth saying this. If it's the second, it may not be true.

As far as the hidden part. It's a private list, and It's always been that way and I'm comfortable with that. But it has changed. If nothing else, the archive has gone way more 'hidden' than it was, even to the point of being deleted for no logical reason because you don't want to be discovered. This is why we talk about The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name. Because if you don't even have the guts to post under your 'real' *pseud* in defense of Metallica slash, we have no reason to assume you'd appreciate being publicised on LJ -- because every child can figure out how to derive the list URL from its name.

Then there was the archive thing, as I've described above, and as I've clearly said in the emails I sent you back when I left, this was not about official list policy, but rather about general list 'feeling' that negative sentiments should not be expressed, and if they had to be, it should be off-list. [Because heavens forbid a list policy should be discussed between members, and then voted upon.]

Kris -- Being forced to post feedback or a story is not my idea of 'having fun'. I prefer a list where I can post if I'm in a talkative mood, and lurk when I'm broody, and no one will come up to me and tell me to participate or be unsubbed.

And I don't understand why you perceive metslash as 'snobbish'. Why? Just because people aren't forced to talk doesn't mean they're not allowed to.

[rsadelle]

I just want to repeat and reinforce one thing Melle said. I started metslash. I did it all on my own without any help at all from anyone else. I'm the only person with listmom/moderator powers. I did not tell people, "Leave tallific and come join my list." I did not entice Melle away from tallific. She left for her own reasons, which were somewhat different, although not entirely different, from mine.

Here's what I think.

[absolutelyvile.livejournal.com]

In other words:

A: We should all just forget the past and try and move on. I think this would be a bit difficult since a number of people's feelings seem to be hurt.

B: We try appointing a time and an mIRC room and meet there and rationally discuss any differences that people feel need to be put to rest.

C: I'm most fond of this option...

D: How did Jase get in here?!?

So. Those are my ideas. I think that 27 journal comments is getting a little ridiculous and that obviously none of us can let this go. Thus, I propose a Metallica Slash World Summit. Does this make sense to anyone else?

Re: Here's what I think.

[(Anonymous)]

ROX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have I ever told you I love you???

Well I do...oh and I can't choose between c & d!

Can I combine the two!

Thanks babe for putting this in prespective...I'm going to take my kid to the mall!!

I OWE YOU BIG TIME!
Hug
Sel

Here's what I think : By Liz

[(Anonymous)]

I think that we all need to try to get along...and you know what the best way to do so would be? We all need to gang up and screw Kirk senseless...I know not the healthiest way to deal with things but certainly the funniest.

Now I know that each list has differant archiving policies and to me it seems like Metslash was created to be everything that tallific wasn't. Tallific is secret, and I personally don't want my stuff open to the general public due to the fact that I learned from the Metboards what hassle that can cause, and I don't want my inbox filled with yet more flames concerning this matter.I know that some of the Metallica slash writers have put their stuff up on FF.Net and again I have seen the flames this has caused. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having my stories critsised, if I did I sure as hell wouldn't use Spooks as my beta, but I don't want to be called names just because of what I write...no thank you I have had to deal with enough of that.

Re: Here's what I think : By Liz (the rest of what I was going to say.)

[(Anonymous)]

Now while I don't agree with wives in fic just on the principal that there is a SLIM chance the guys of Metallica might read the stuff and while they know that as public figures there is a chance that they might get slashed, their wives never asked for this. I know James is especially private about his family. But getting back to the point again this is your choice.

And by the way, I am eighteen years old and am in no way considered a child, yet I couldn't find the tallific page until a certain list moderator gave me Spooks e-mail address.

And as far as the unlimited membership thing goes, as I have said in my own LJ...I like the smaller list, it gives people the chance to have their voices heard, yet makes it to where there are always people around to read your stories... I like this, I personally have seen many groups go under because they are so large that they fold in on themselves, and when that happens you get nasty list splits like the one that seems to be fueling this argument...

So in closing what I would like to say is this...Can't we all just get along, agree to disagree and walk away from the whole mess. As I said in the beginning what we really need to do is all hold Kirk down and screw him sensless.

Kris--again

[(Anonymous)]

There is just one thing that I don't understand here. Ruth, you keep saying that your STILL upset about the way things went when you were on tallific. I think you ought to take a moment to find out WHY something like that bothers you SO much that you have to brood about it for this long. I mean really. You have metslash, let go of your problems with tallific and get over it.

Re: Kris--again

[rsadelle]

I hold onto hurt and anger and bitterness for a very long time. I already know that about myself. The reaction I've gotten here--the shock, horror, and insults in response to my saying how I feel about something--is precisely why I didn't talk about this this way when I first left tallific. I have enough distance now that talking about it makes me feel better instead of worse.

It's Tri.

[katari.livejournal.com]

I'm a member of Metslash, former member of The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name, for those of you that don't know, and while I lurk most of the time, I had to comment on a few of the things I've seen stated here.

Sel said:

everything that has been a major issue was discussed and voted on...opened to the entire list.

Sel, let me ask you something: do you consider the complete changing of archiving policy a major issue? It is, and that's why I find your above statement blatantly hypocritical. The decision to disallow fic posted on the archive for The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name was not voted on by the entire list, I remember that vividly. There was an email sitting in my inbox from you Three S's telling me and the rest of the list that we weren't allowed to have our stories on another list's archive if they were archived on The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name.

I just wanted to point that out, as people seem to have forgotten that.

Liz said:

And by the way, I am eighteen years old and am in no way considered a child, yet I couldn't find the tallific page until a certain list moderator gave me Spooks e-mail address.

I'm eighteen as well, Liz, and I hate to be the one to tell you guys this, but your archive is not as hidden as you seem to think it is. On a lark, I went looking for it. I found it, and it didn't take more than five minutes.

Jez said:

Contradiction?

Heya, Jez.

The only people I've seen contradicting themselves so far are some of the folks on The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name, so I don't know why you're asking that. If I've missed something, please feel free to point it out to me, Jez.

Re: It's Tri.

[jerryteacup.livejournal.com]

Nah, not much. I've read this thing a bit lately and on few occasions Ruth has contradicted herself.

I mean... she says she doesn't personally attack... but I kinda consider it a personal attack when she points out a few of her pros and then names a person who - according to her - doesn't have the same pros...

And also... somewhere up there Ruth says that any criticism towards the 3 S's - whoever they are, I just have a guess - is a big no-no... or that people don't dare to speak their mind to the boss(es) of our list... THEN, she aknowledges that people have difficulty addressing those in charge, whether it's her or the 3 S's...

That kinda makes me wonder, if she always knew that, then why the hell...?

Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::

[sandrine]

The wise choice would probably be to be silent and ignore this whole list-fight thing. But I never claimed to be wise, so here you go -

First, I'd like to say that both my recent lurking on tallific as well as my unsubbing from metslash have nothing to do with my feelings for the list policies or people on the lists, but rather with the realization that while I immensely enjoy reading a Metallica slash story every once in a while I don't need a daily fix and I don't have the time to write stories in this fandom.

This threat however, amazes me. Ruth feels bitter about how things between the list have worked out (or rather haven't) - fine. She writes one (or two, or three - doesn't really matter) entry in her lifejournal - go ahead, it's *your* journal; you can post whatever you want. Three days later there are almost 70 comments - huh? As far as I remember, when this started it was a rather personal thing between Spooks and Ruth. How it came to be a list-war with over twenty people involved is an enigma to me. How can anyone who hasn't ever been on one of the lists bash it? Don't talk about things you only know second-hand. If all you have to say is "my friend x told me that y said that list z is shit", you'd better shut up.

Second, as far as I can judge that, people on Spooky's list are happy. I don't know if people on metslash are happy because I haven't been there for months. But you know what? If anyone isn't happy with how things are handled the list s/he is one, they can unsub. No one is stopping them. If someone is strongly morally offended by the mere idea of wife fic, they can leave metslash anytime. And if someone hates dues, then Spooks isn't chaining you to a wall and forcing you to stay. (Frankly, I haven't done the dues thing for two months and no one bit my head off, either.) What I want to say is - you can join or leave whatever list you like. You can be happy wherever you want to be and there's certainly no need to attack people who chose to be happy somewhere else.

On to the the point that bugs me a bit - the whole 'The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name' issue and that some people seem to make fun of the secretive nature of the list. I'm seriously involved in a fandom that's even more secretive than Metallica ever was. The one list we have doesn't even archive its messages (and to be honest, I wouldn't be there otherwise). That doesn't mean we don't *want* to stand by what we are doing, but rather that some people have to keep their involvement in things like RPS secret because it damage their careers. Okay, maybe I'm paranoid. Maybe people on Spooks' list are paranoid. But it's our right to be, and if we want to keep hidden then please respect that choice. 'Outing' yourself on the metboard was a brave thing to do, but not everyone is in the position to be brave in those regards.

And finally, don't you think that we're all spending far too much time over this issue? It's fanfiction - and while we probably all take writing serious, it foremost should be fun. *This* isn't fun anymore. I do understand that there are some people with hurt feelings out there and maybe they should really get together in chat or wherever they want and talk it over. Most of us, however, aren't really involved and we're probably only making it worse. (And yes, if you see it like that, posting that comment probably isn't a great idea after all. But I've spent too much time writing it, and therefore I'll push that post button just the same ...)

Re: Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::

[rsadelle]

You're right. 70 comments does seem a bit excessive. My question about why people aren't comfortable crossposting seems to have become the springboard for a discussion about everything people on each list dislike about the other list.

You say that you haven't gotten in trouble for missing your dues. What's the point of a list policy if it's not enforced?

While I respect tallific's right to stay hidden, when the discussion came up on the Free Speech boards, Spooky said that she runs a slash list that she prefers to keep hidden, but, to me, it seems that even saying that is advertising its existence.