Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

[rsadelle]

So, I run this list. It's not the only Metallica slash out there. There are people on metslash who aren't on the list that dare not speak its name, and vice versa. There are some people on both lists. Most of the people who are no mail and/or lurkers on metslash are on both lists. Most of the people who post fic are only on metslash.

Every time I remind people about our archiving policies, I remind them that crossposting is okay. It is possible to post a fic to a list without granting archiving permission. I know that some of the people on both lists are writers. I know that some of them are extremely good writers. I know that they've posted fic to the other list. And yet, with the exception of one author and one story by a second author, none of them post to metslash.

Why not?

Is it because we don't automatically jump up and down and say, "Oh, you're so wonderful, that was the best story ever, when are you writing the sequel?" to every piece of fic that gets posted? Is it because I actually dare to say what I don't like about fic? I only wish someone would critique my fic the way I've critiqued other people's fic. Well, the more recent stuff anyway; I know just how bad some of my older fic is. Isn't that far more useful to you as a writer than unconditional praise for every word you write?

Or perhaps, like one person who recently unsubbed, they don't like it that I dare say that I don't like some of the writing and list policies of the other list. Apparently the fact that all three S's and various other people from the other list have said extremely negative things about metslash and me in their journals and journal comments is completely irrelevant.

Not that I'm bitter.

Comments

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

I am bitter, very bitter. Not because of the actual break-up and the fight that followed from it, because looking back on it, that was a case of people parting ways, and I know I could and should have handled that differently than I did.

At this point, I feel the need to elaborate a little on why I unsubbed, because a lot of people still seem to think I'm co-moderator of metslash. This. Is. Not. So. When Ruth started metslash, I joined, because hey, it was [is] a Metallica slash list, and it allowed some things that tallific didn't, so by subbing to both lists, I'd get all or at least most stories.

I was, at that point, bothered about a number of tallific's policies, both official and unofficial ones, but I didn't talk about it, because the general list atmosphere seemed to indicate that no one would agree with me.

Then came the archiving policy. Looking back, I realise maybe I should've emailed the moderators informing them of my pov, namely that metlash was not a 'mirror list' of tallific, and that I thought the policy was ridiculous. Instead, I just said screw it and unsubbed. And yes, I was blunt about it. Yes, I said a lot of things I shouldn't've said. That was then, and I'm not bitter about that.

What I'm bitter about is the assumption that is very clear in all these comments, that metslash 'works' the same way tallific does -- or at least did when I left.

This may be a shock to some people, but none of us bitter ex-tallificcers are spouting off venomous lies about The Other List. If someone asks, I will try to give them my pov of what happened, clearly warning them this is all my side of the story and yours is prolly different, and just as valid. I don't go around telling people about "this other list, who are sooooooo evil because of thisnthat," and in fact I prefer not to get newbies dragged into this whole mess.

Also, when Ruth and I were having a fight, this had no effect on metslash, nor did it make Ruth an evil, overbearing bitch, or any of us her [abandoning] 'cronies'. We were having a one-against-one fight, and the fact that Spooky somehow concluded that meant the list was falling apart, and called me a 'follower', hurt me deeply.

What I'm also bitter and angry about is the fact that a lot of you apparently cannot make the distinction between criticism and bashing, between 'bashing' a listmom as a person and 'bashing' her list policies, between 'bashing' the dominant way of writing a certain pairing and 'bashing' that pairing and all that like it, etc. etc. etc.

[More in follow-up, because LJ won't let me post this in its entirety.]

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

Sel --

Well...first of all in reference to the leading and collar comment. It was told to me my at least three different people, at different times. It was said in chat, and these people felt I didn't deserve it.

Do you mean someone told this to you in chat, or that they claim it was said in chat? If it's the former, please ask these people where they saw this, because I can't recall [or imagine] Ruth saying this. If it's the second, it may not be true.

As far as the hidden part. It's a private list, and It's always been that way and I'm comfortable with that. But it has changed. If nothing else, the archive has gone way more 'hidden' than it was, even to the point of being deleted for no logical reason because you don't want to be discovered. This is why we talk about The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name. Because if you don't even have the guts to post under your 'real' *pseud* in defense of Metallica slash, we have no reason to assume you'd appreciate being publicised on LJ -- because every child can figure out how to derive the list URL from its name.

Then there was the archive thing, as I've described above, and as I've clearly said in the emails I sent you back when I left, this was not about official list policy, but rather about general list 'feeling' that negative sentiments should not be expressed, and if they had to be, it should be off-list. [Because heavens forbid a list policy should be discussed between members, and then voted upon.]

Kris -- Being forced to post feedback or a story is not my idea of 'having fun'. I prefer a list where I can post if I'm in a talkative mood, and lurk when I'm broody, and no one will come up to me and tell me to participate or be unsubbed.

And I don't understand why you perceive metslash as 'snobbish'. Why? Just because people aren't forced to talk doesn't mean they're not allowed to.

Kris--response to Sofie

[(Anonymous)]

It's funny you mention feedback. I haven't been providing much feedback on the list, as I've not had the time I need to read and then feedback. However, not once have I been told to feedback or hit the road. I don't know where you got this idea from. Ironically, we do have several on the list that do 'lurk' from time to time then play catch up when they have time. (it's called having a life) But they DO post on a somewhat regular basis. None of them have been told to leave either. Just to blow that misconception all to hell. Incidentally, what started this little 'war of the words' is the subject of dues which is another matter entirely. The entire list voted on dues, and most everyone agreed to it. So, there really is no problem with dues now is there??
Here's what it all boils down to. Tallific is a list that is for writers. Point blank. If you don't write, then find another list. It's really that simple. Now, how much sense does it make to complain about a list that is for WRITERS that requires WRITERS to WRITE?

Re: response to Sofie and Kris.- Hamlet

[(Anonymous)]

I am a member of tallific and I know for a fact that there are times when the list understands that you are going to have to lurk...or not participate at all. For instance I am on Tallific and for a week and a half there I didn't say anything...I was laid up in bed in the hospital after being in the hospital.

I had friends who didn't ask Liz about me as much as some of the people on the list. Liz for those of you who don't know, is my best friend in the world and the one person who has stood by me through everything...Well anyways there I am laid up in the hospital and the day I go in for surgery one list member draws me a get well card and sends it through Liz and a lot of the members sent along thier well wishes...Like I said earlier I don't have friends in RL who cared that much about me.

Well anyways I missed dues, and yet I am still on the list...I just had to let them know the reason I wasn't posting at that point in time...

Re: response to Sofie and Kris.- Hamlet

[rsadelle]

I know better than to think that they're going to demand dues from someone in the hospital. It's the concept of dues in itself, the idea that you have to do something in fandom on a particular schedule that I hate.

Re: Kris--response to Sofie

[rsadelle]

When I was on the other list, Spooky would say that she wouldn't post the next part of whichever fic she was currently posting until she got enough feedback. When she wrote the infamous lion sex, she said that she expected feedback from everyone who read it. While I realize that no one is standing there saying, "feedback or be kicked off the list," the attitude of the list was always that if you didn't feedback, you were being an irresponsible, ungrateful and horrible list member. I would be delighted if that's changed.

The problem with dues is that people feel like they have to post fic, and people (and I do mean that in the plural; I've seen more than one person say it) end up posting fic they think needs more work, but has to be posted now to pay their dues. I know that Spooky has continually reminded people in journal comments that they don't have to use fic to pay dues, however people still seem to think they have to. The fact that it doesn't have to be fic seems to imply that one does not have to be a writer to be a member of tallific.

Re: Kris--response to Sofie

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

But they DO post on a somewhat regular basis.

That's my whole fucking point! I have a lot of periods where I just don't want to post at all. As in, not a single post. For sometimes weeks on end. I don't know about the frequency of these 'dues', but I imagine I'd have been unsubbed thrice over by now, if I'd have still been on the list.

And tallific most certainly wasn't a 'writers list' when I was on it. Roughtly half the members were non-writers, and no one saw anything wrong with that, because after all writers need readers, too. And even if it was/is a writers list, yes, dammit, it makes perfect sense not to foce someone to write when she or he isn't inspired or in a mood to write. A writer is not a machine you can switch on and get fic from. It doesn't work that way.

One of the reasons I'm so bitchy about this is that I know there are some good writers on tallific, and I'm not able/allowed to read their stories unless I'm on the list, and I'm not allowed to stay on the list unless I either give people some fic of my own, or feedback them. To me, that feels a lot like emotional blackmail.

In response...

[(Anonymous)]

Mell - "But it has changed. If nothing else, the archive has gone way more 'hidden' than it was, even to the point of being deleted for no logical reason because you don't want to be discovered. This is why we talk about The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name. Because if you don't even have the guts to post under your 'real' *pseud* in defense of Metallica slash, we have no reason to assume you'd appreciate being publicised on LJ -- because every child can figure out how to derive the list URL from its name."

The entire site was not deleted for no reason. It was moved to protect those who wish to remain anonymous after the coming out of metslash on the MetBoards. You may think it was for no reason. And now it will be harder for said child to actually find the site. As I said, we have always been private, moreso now. We however think there was a very good reason. You just believe we are wrong in our reasonings because they conflict with yours.

As for not having the *guts* to post under my own pseud. That is MY CHOICE. Who are you to try and take that away from me? Or suggest that I am wrong by not doing so? If i chose to keep that part of my life private I should be able to. Just like if you want to flame it to the world that you do write it. Fine more power to you. People who don't have any idea about my slash writing know me as sel, so I prefer to keep it as private as possible. I'm not wrong for trying to do that. On the Metboards I did defend metslash under Sel. That was my choice again, it seems i made a mistake.

As for the collar comment, yes it was said in chat...I however prefer to drop it. Yes I know i brought it up...but this is my decision as well. One which im sure you will view as wrong. Do I believe them...why would 3 different people lie?

As for discussing list policy...and voting on it. We have at talli, so I really don't know where you are getting your information from. As teesa has said...everything that has been a major issue was discussed and voted on...opened to the entire list. So if you are getting information to the contrary i don't know why.

Oh and because it was expressed that if you had negative feedback or somthing about a story they should be sent off list...that is considered wrong? Unless a writer requests a neg crit. I don't see why thats wrong on anyones part. It's kept our list from erupting into flame wars. And as for posting negative sentiments that pertain to list policies or Discussions...many on our list have. AND they have been adult enought to work out their differences on list. So I really don't see what you are talking about there as well.

These were feelings only you and ruth had ( I say this because no one else came forward and said this to me. oops sorry there was one other who did.) ...in regards to the list being negative in any way. You never expressed them to any of us. You left the list that was it.

Yet you continue to crusade about what is wrong with US. Why for gods sake? What is the facination?

I think teesa said it best, getting over this would be a good thing.

Re: In response...

[rsadelle]

I'll let Melle respond to most of your points, because I know she'll be disappointed if I do it all and leave nothing left for her to respond to, but I want to clarify one thing. She wasn't talking about being able to find the archive. She was talking about the fact that by knowing the name of any list at Yahoo! Groups, anyone familiar with their structure can find that page for it and click on the "join" link.

Re: In response...

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

The entire site was not deleted for no reason. It was moved to protect those who wish to remain anonymous after the coming out of metslash on the MetBoards.

The site was moved from Squidge after the list split. Since then, the URL and the password has always been secret. During the FS thing, it was taken offline for a while. At least, that's what I was told by someone who is still on Tallific. If this is true, it seems to me to be really very paranoid, because no one from the FS discussion could've gotten the URL, let alone the password, to the archive.

Oh and because it was expressed that if you had negative feedback or somthing about a story they should be sent off list...that is considered wrong?

It's 'wrong', because it added tremendously to my impression that only shiny happy thoughts could be expressed on-list.

And as for posting negative sentiments that pertain to list policies or Discussions...many on our list have. AND they have been adult enought to work out their differences on list

It's been 6 months since I left Tallific. Apparently, that part of the list atmosphere has changed since then. Good for the people that are on Tallific now. I recall things being different.

These were feelings only you and ruth had ( I say this because no one else came forward and said this to me.

That's one of the things we've been saying all along. People who don't feel like they can express negative opinions about the list to you three are obviously not going to come to you and say that. I know of at least one person who is only on tallific for the stories. Ruth has had a conversation with another person who also feels this way. There are likely a number of other people who agree with this but haven't talked to us. As I said, these people are very unlikely to come to you and talk about this.

[rsadelle]

I just want to repeat and reinforce one thing Melle said. I started metslash. I did it all on my own without any help at all from anyone else. I'm the only person with listmom/moderator powers. I did not tell people, "Leave tallific and come join my list." I did not entice Melle away from tallific. She left for her own reasons, which were somewhat different, although not entirely different, from mine.