Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

[rsadelle]

So, I run this list. It's not the only Metallica slash out there. There are people on metslash who aren't on the list that dare not speak its name, and vice versa. There are some people on both lists. Most of the people who are no mail and/or lurkers on metslash are on both lists. Most of the people who post fic are only on metslash.

Every time I remind people about our archiving policies, I remind them that crossposting is okay. It is possible to post a fic to a list without granting archiving permission. I know that some of the people on both lists are writers. I know that some of them are extremely good writers. I know that they've posted fic to the other list. And yet, with the exception of one author and one story by a second author, none of them post to metslash.

Why not?

Is it because we don't automatically jump up and down and say, "Oh, you're so wonderful, that was the best story ever, when are you writing the sequel?" to every piece of fic that gets posted? Is it because I actually dare to say what I don't like about fic? I only wish someone would critique my fic the way I've critiqued other people's fic. Well, the more recent stuff anyway; I know just how bad some of my older fic is. Isn't that far more useful to you as a writer than unconditional praise for every word you write?

Or perhaps, like one person who recently unsubbed, they don't like it that I dare say that I don't like some of the writing and list policies of the other list. Apparently the fact that all three S's and various other people from the other list have said extremely negative things about metslash and me in their journals and journal comments is completely irrelevant.

Not that I'm bitter.

Comments

Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::

[sandrine]

The wise choice would probably be to be silent and ignore this whole list-fight thing. But I never claimed to be wise, so here you go -

First, I'd like to say that both my recent lurking on tallific as well as my unsubbing from metslash have nothing to do with my feelings for the list policies or people on the lists, but rather with the realization that while I immensely enjoy reading a Metallica slash story every once in a while I don't need a daily fix and I don't have the time to write stories in this fandom.

This threat however, amazes me. Ruth feels bitter about how things between the list have worked out (or rather haven't) - fine. She writes one (or two, or three - doesn't really matter) entry in her lifejournal - go ahead, it's *your* journal; you can post whatever you want. Three days later there are almost 70 comments - huh? As far as I remember, when this started it was a rather personal thing between Spooks and Ruth. How it came to be a list-war with over twenty people involved is an enigma to me. How can anyone who hasn't ever been on one of the lists bash it? Don't talk about things you only know second-hand. If all you have to say is "my friend x told me that y said that list z is shit", you'd better shut up.

Second, as far as I can judge that, people on Spooky's list are happy. I don't know if people on metslash are happy because I haven't been there for months. But you know what? If anyone isn't happy with how things are handled the list s/he is one, they can unsub. No one is stopping them. If someone is strongly morally offended by the mere idea of wife fic, they can leave metslash anytime. And if someone hates dues, then Spooks isn't chaining you to a wall and forcing you to stay. (Frankly, I haven't done the dues thing for two months and no one bit my head off, either.) What I want to say is - you can join or leave whatever list you like. You can be happy wherever you want to be and there's certainly no need to attack people who chose to be happy somewhere else.

On to the the point that bugs me a bit - the whole 'The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name' issue and that some people seem to make fun of the secretive nature of the list. I'm seriously involved in a fandom that's even more secretive than Metallica ever was. The one list we have doesn't even archive its messages (and to be honest, I wouldn't be there otherwise). That doesn't mean we don't *want* to stand by what we are doing, but rather that some people have to keep their involvement in things like RPS secret because it damage their careers. Okay, maybe I'm paranoid. Maybe people on Spooks' list are paranoid. But it's our right to be, and if we want to keep hidden then please respect that choice. 'Outing' yourself on the metboard was a brave thing to do, but not everyone is in the position to be brave in those regards.

And finally, don't you think that we're all spending far too much time over this issue? It's fanfiction - and while we probably all take writing serious, it foremost should be fun. *This* isn't fun anymore. I do understand that there are some people with hurt feelings out there and maybe they should really get together in chat or wherever they want and talk it over. Most of us, however, aren't really involved and we're probably only making it worse. (And yes, if you see it like that, posting that comment probably isn't a great idea after all. But I've spent too much time writing it, and therefore I'll push that post button just the same ...)

Re: Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::

[rsadelle]

You're right. 70 comments does seem a bit excessive. My question about why people aren't comfortable crossposting seems to have become the springboard for a discussion about everything people on each list dislike about the other list.

You say that you haven't gotten in trouble for missing your dues. What's the point of a list policy if it's not enforced?

While I respect tallific's right to stay hidden, when the discussion came up on the Free Speech boards, Spooky said that she runs a slash list that she prefers to keep hidden, but, to me, it seems that even saying that is advertising its existence.

Re: Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::--Kris here

[(Anonymous)]

Hey, you started the fire. Anyway, to the list policy, it IS enforced if you miss 3 dues. Your told to hand in dues or they'll let you go. Simple as that.
(and I know, your going to have some little snit about someone being let go because they don't hand in dues...so go ahead)

Re: Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::--Kris here

[minette.livejournal.com]

I hardly think Ruth expressing her opinion counts as starting a fire. Everybody who commented on this made a choice to do so and by continuing to do so, it lead to this entire event. Let's not play the Blame Game here; or if you do, please take some of the responsibility for your part in it. I certainly acknowledge my part in this whole thing since I commented on it and am continuing to comment on it. I am not blameless here, I admit that.

and I know, your going to have some little snit about someone being let go because they don't hand in dues...

A snit? Over another list's dues policy? I seriously doubt that Ruth is that childish or petty. If you'd actually read her journal closely, you'd see that she had said that she didn't understand why dues had to be paid just for the privilege of being on a list, not that The Other List was wrong for having them. We all acknowledge that your list does things differently from ours, so I really can't see Ruth throwing a tantrum because the list policy is enforced.

Re: Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::--Kris here

[(Anonymous)]

Yes Minette a snit. Ruth enjoys picking apart people's posts and coming to her own conclusions. The wrong conclusions might I add. Then, people like myself come here and set the record straight. That is part of the contributing factor. As for me coming here and adding to the problem, sure, I know damn good and well that I am. But, since she mentioned me unsubbing (not by name, but my mama didn't raise a fool) I figured I might as well make my reasons for leaving very clear.
And yes, I do feel that Ruth is very childish to hold a grudge against a list she is no longer a part of. If she'd just let it go and quit writing about it all the time, the rest of us would just leave it alone as well. Unfortunetly, we feel the need to defend ourselves when we get attacked.

Re: Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::--Kris here

[minette.livejournal.com]

Ruth isn't childish enough to hold a snit over what your list does. She does, however, have strong opinions about lists that use dues as payment for staying on said list. She didn't come to any "wrong conclusions", but merely pointed out that she didn't understand why it had to be done. Again, she made no judgment call on The Other List for having dues.

f she'd just let it go and quit writing about it all the time, the rest of us would just leave it alone as well.

Ruth feels the need to talk about this in her journal. She can write whatever she wants to in it and if she chooses not to let it go, then that's her prerogative. She had a bad time on The Other List and she feels that she has a legitimate need to let it out in her journal. It is her private journal, by the way, so these are her thoughts, her emotions, and her points of view. Calling her childish for having them is churlish and unkind.

Frankly, there were no attacks made on people from your list. No one flamed any of you and questioned your character or your judgment. We merely disagreed with what you said. This does not construe an attack, it merely means that we disagree with what you've said. Ruth has never passed judgment on your listsibs as people and she has never said anything derogatory about Spooky, other than she doesn't like her.

Re: Yet another one commenting on this ... ::sigh::--Kris here

[rsadelle]

I don't believe in dues as a policy for any list. However, whatever policies a list has in place ought to be enforced. Getting away with handing in your dues only once out of every three times you're supposed to doesn't seem like true enforcement of a policy to me.

Should fandom be fun?

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

Depends on your definitions of 'fandom' and 'fun', I guess, and on your expecations of fandom and the people in it. But that's for my own journal and for when I can think clearer.

No, this is not any fun for me at this moment. I'm not enjoying this discussion on an intellectual level, because it's mostly a repetition of the same arguments over and over again, and it's personal enough that I get really upset over [some of] it.

But once it's over with, I'll feel much better than if I'd have kept on bottling it up. This is my way of 'getting over it', by bitching and arguing about it. I stepped up to talk about this because it was clear from a lot of comments that people were still labouring under misconceptions about me, why I left Tallific, my 'status' in metslash, and things like that. I'll keep on arguing as long people keep misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Re: Should fandom be fun?

[sandrine]

Well, I think it should be. Okay, maybe 'fun' is the wrong word, but it still should be something to enjoy. Why bother otherwise? If fandom is just upsetting us we can all go into our own little corners, write our stories for ourselves and be happy without sharing them. The only point of fandom is, IMO, to find others who are interested in the same thing, share and discuss your ideas with them. And yes, that is supposed to be fun.

It's only natural that wherever people talk there will be arguments, but at the point where an argument turns into this mess, it stops being fun and turns into something far more serious that it should be. Wasn't it you who once said that we should take writing serious, but not fandom? I don't really remember and it's not important who said it - but whoever did, they had a point.

Re: Should fandom be fun?

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

Yes, but see, sometimes you have to get through a small amount of non-fun now, or fandom will cease to be much, if any, fun in the long run.

Re: Should fandom be fun?

[sandrine]

You think it ever will be after that whole mess?

::sigh:: I see your point, though. You're right, sometime we just can't all get along. I still find it immensely frustrating. :( One or two misunderstandings and everything blows up. No wonder humankind is going the way of the dinosaurs ...

Re: Should fandom be fun?

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

It will, for me. Especially since I've come away from this whole mess with a very important lesson: Don't Bottle Up. I feel a lot better about fandom after this thing than I did before, and I know that other people have been hurt by things I've said and done, but frankly, sometimes I have to think of myself first, and others second.

Re: Should fandom be fun?

[rsadelle]

I agree with Melle on this one. I feel infinitely better now. All of this has been bottled up, sugar-coated, and ignored for months. It had to be discussed eventually, and this was apparently the time and place.