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rsadelleSo, I run this list. It's not the only Metallica slash out there. There are people on metslash who aren't on the list that dare not speak its name, and vice versa. There are some people on both lists. Most of the people who are no mail and/or lurkers on metslash are on both lists. Most of the people who post fic are only on metslash.
Every time I remind people about our archiving policies, I remind them that crossposting is okay. It is possible to post a fic to a list without granting archiving permission. I know that some of the people on both lists are writers. I know that some of them are extremely good writers. I know that they've posted fic to the other list. And yet, with the exception of one author and one story by a second author, none of them post to metslash.
Why not?
Is it because we don't automatically jump up and down and say, "Oh, you're so wonderful, that was the best story ever, when are you writing the sequel?" to every piece of fic that gets posted? Is it because I actually dare to say what I don't like about fic? I only wish someone would critique my fic the way I've critiqued other people's fic. Well, the more recent stuff anyway; I know just how bad some of my older fic is. Isn't that far more useful to you as a writer than unconditional praise for every word you write?
Or perhaps, like one person who recently unsubbed, they don't like it that I dare say that I don't like some of the writing and list policies of the other list. Apparently the fact that all three S's and various other people from the other list have said extremely negative things about metslash and me in their journals and journal comments is completely irrelevant.
Not that I'm bitter.
Every time I remind people about our archiving policies, I remind them that crossposting is okay. It is possible to post a fic to a list without granting archiving permission. I know that some of the people on both lists are writers. I know that some of them are extremely good writers. I know that they've posted fic to the other list. And yet, with the exception of one author and one story by a second author, none of them post to metslash.
Why not?
Is it because we don't automatically jump up and down and say, "Oh, you're so wonderful, that was the best story ever, when are you writing the sequel?" to every piece of fic that gets posted? Is it because I actually dare to say what I don't like about fic? I only wish someone would critique my fic the way I've critiqued other people's fic. Well, the more recent stuff anyway; I know just how bad some of my older fic is. Isn't that far more useful to you as a writer than unconditional praise for every word you write?
Or perhaps, like one person who recently unsubbed, they don't like it that I dare say that I don't like some of the writing and list policies of the other list. Apparently the fact that all three S's and various other people from the other list have said extremely negative things about metslash and me in their journals and journal comments is completely irrelevant.
Not that I'm bitter.
Bitter? Us?
Date: 2001-04-26 06:28 pm (UTC)I think critiquing a story--pointing out what works and what doesn't, and why it does or does not--is one of the most valuable things a writer can get. I like getting the 'it was great' comments, but I value the 'this was good, but this would have been better' comments as well. How can I improve my writing skills if I don't know what I did wrong?
As for criticizing the other list, well, we all know that it's wrong and mean to say anything negative about their writing or policies. After all, we should all be nice to them and just agree with everything they say and can't we all just get along?
And despite the many epithets hurled at metslash and you, we should all remember that they just criticized the writing, not us personally, she said sarcastically. I mean, it's not like they called everyone who moved to metslash 'crones', or referred to you as a 'bitch', and inferred that you were leading me around by the nose, or anything of that nature.
Why, I do believe that I am not bitter along with you. How fun.
Hmmm....
Date: 2001-04-26 06:56 pm (UTC)I came in after the whole 'list split' thing. I don't know the whole story, and have come to the conclusion that I don't really care. Nothing to do with me, and that's why I resubbed to Metslash and intend to post fic to both lists.
As far as crit goes, I'm fine with it. I have a beta in another fandom who doesn't hesitate to point out any and all errors, plot point fuck ups, and things that just don't sound right, and I love it. Breeds improvement.
List politics? I'm Switzerland... *g*
Re: Hmmm....
Date: 2001-04-26 07:27 pm (UTC)Please do post away. You can also post things that have already been posted to the other list. Remember that those of us on metslash only have had no chance to read them, which is why I think that the list that dare not speak its name's archive hiding policy is so horribly unfair to readers who want to read without being on that list and to writers who may want wider exposure for their fic.
(no subject)
Date: 2001-04-26 09:28 pm (UTC)Why not?"
As one of those belongs-to-both-but-is-silent-on-one members, I feel the need to speak up about *why* I stay silent on Metslash.
The initial reason for my silence was this: I got the impression during the split that you and Melle disliked me. My attempts to speak to either of you seemed to be ignored and any e-mail or post I sent wasn't replied to. [Sidenote: The unanswered e-mails seems to be a fluke, since Melle says she answered them (and I believe her... my mail isn't all that trustworthy.)] Plus, as a friend of Spooky, I reacted negatively to all the criticism that seemed to be focused not on the Tallific policies but on Spooks herself, thus leaving little desire on my part to join the Metslash chat sessions. (At this point, it is nice for everyone to claim that they only have issues with Whichever List They Oppose's policies, but I think its safe to say that chat and LJ entries make that statement seem a little ridiculous. Personal attacks have been rampant and I'm just as much a victim as I am a culprit.)
The reason that I am still silent (after having realized that this moronic "Let's ignore Rox!" conspiracy was all in my head) is that twice I have posted fic to Metslash and both times I didn't receive a single word of acknowledgement. I wasn't looking for an, "I loved it, where's the sequel?" comment. I wasn't deeply concerned about any sort of feedback. Yet the fact that no one said a single thing led me to beleive either a) no one read the damn thing or b) they didn't care enough about it to say anything. Thus, why post more, if either no one likes my writing or no one read it? I'd have really appreciated a critical review as well, since "Headline" is the only fic I'm actually proud of and would appreciate any feedback as to what I did right or, more importantly, what I did wrong so that I can avoid any future mistakes.
All in all, posting at Metslash has left a bad taste in my mouth. If I'm mistaken, let me know. I'd be more than happy to post some of my other pieces, short and pointless though they are.
Tis like this...
Date: 2001-04-27 05:19 am (UTC)Reason number one, Spooks is my beta. As much as you claim you are over it, 5 out of your last 7ish journal entry's are in some way formed to swipe at Spooks. Sorry but this leads me to think you are pety enough to pick holes in my fic, just because.
Sorry, my self asteam is fucked enough without you helping its down fall.
Reason two, you took great pleasure in picking holes in the pairing I am most comfortable with, without ever having read a damn word I've written. This reasures me exactly how? Dare I say I'm actually good at James/Kirk, you admire Teresa, listen to her comments about my fic.
It has nothing to do with people shouting encore! Ask anybody, I am convinced what I write is utter crap.
As far as I'm concerned, to a certain extent, you have cut your own throat.
Don't be bitter...and don't blame it on us...
Date: 2001-04-27 08:05 am (UTC)Not hardly...People usually post where they feel the most comfortable...and don't blame our archiving policy...its common on a lot of lists. People are free to post where they want too despite what you think or believe.
And face it...this was mostly a personal attack toward spooks not list policy...at least from My POV...but remember I'm the one being led around by the nose...Your exact words I believe.
Oh and BTW...you can hate us...talk about us in chat...grind us unto the ground...um...who gives a fuck. LOL...I find it odd that you are still so interested in what we do...even though you hate our policy's and us. So, feel free to do so if it makes you feel better. You seem determined to turn this into a war for some reason...instead of letting things go.
If you all don't comment and give feedback on fics, and your way of working a list is failin, It's not out fault.
How do you expect a list to survive if there is no participation and feedback...and discussion. If you can't foster that on your own list...please dont blame us...it's childish.
Hmmmm...
Date: 2001-04-27 09:21 am (UTC)However, (and yes, I know this is probably going to characterize me as one of Spooks fawning zombie-clones) y'all seem to take this way too seriously.
All we're doing is trying to keep our list the way we like it. (Yes, we. No descision has been made without a vote, we're not running the fascist State Of Spooky over here.) It seems to be working pretty well so far for us. For US.
Now, as far as the comments on other LJ's...I'm afraid I don't see it. I mean, I see where MS has been mentioned, but honestly, the only outright attacks have come from here. (though, I'll admit, the bit about dues was funny as hell-I'm sure Spooks was flattered to think that she could scare Lars.) If we're all that horrible, why waste so much energy on us?
So, basically, I think what it boils down to is this: If you don't like the policies, don't be on the list. On the other hand, if your policies aren't getting you what you want,(ie, posts, good James/Kirk slash) maybe you need to rethink.
(no subject)
Date: 2001-04-27 01:10 pm (UTC)As for fic posting, as Melle always likes to say, "You are not your feedback." I do read everything that comes across metslash, and I'm sure there are other people who do as well. I only write feedback when I feel like I really have something to say about a story, and usually only when I have a lot to say about a story. Part of the point of metslash's existence is that no one is forced to post or to feedback, and no one is made to feel guilty if she doesn't write feedback. That doesn't mean we don't read things that are posted. I really can't speak for anyone else, but I would love to see more of your writing. I did read a dues story you had in your journal one day, and I was going to respond to it, but, by the time I got back from class, it was gone (unless the whole thing was a figment of my imagination in the first place). I'm not saying that just to placate you; it really is true.
Re: Tis like this...
Date: 2001-04-27 01:19 pm (UTC)You're right; I don't like Spooks. But I don't fuck around when it comes to writing. If I were going to pick holes in something you wrote, it would be because I thought there were things wrong with it, not because Spooks is your beta.
I picked holes in James/Kirk as it was when I last read any of it, which is way back before Spooks chose to hide her archive from all and sundry. I want to read James/Kirk, but I don't want to read James/Kirk with the same old dynamic that's been done in half of all Metallica slash stories. Perhaps you are a good writer. Perhaps you do write different and more interesting dynamics. I wouldn't know, though, because, as you seem to delight in reminding me, I've never had the chance to read your work. I was not picking holes in James/Kirk as an inherently bad pairing, but rather I was picking holes in a dominant characterization of James/Kirk that I find uninteresting, unrealistic and far too limited in scope.
Re: Don't be bitter...and don't blame it on us...
Date: 2001-04-27 01:26 pm (UTC)I've never accused anyone of leading anyone else around by the nose. Nette has said that she resents the implication that I'm leading people around by the nose. I second that resentment.
If you don't give a fuck, why are you still reading my journal and commenting in it?
What I object to perhaps more than some of the list that dare not speak its name's list policies, although I object to those as general list policies, not as list policies specific to that list, is the list attitude that any potential criticism of Spooky, either as listmom or as a writer, is absolutely wrong and should not be voiced by anyone. No list, no listmom, and no writer should be uncriticizable.
(no subject)
Date: 2001-04-27 01:36 pm (UTC)The point isn't that I was desperate for feedback. Its just that I literally had no idea whether or not anyone had read it.
I think I have a unique position in the fic world. I am not my feedback. However, there is a valid reason for feedback, especially for me- I think that "I write for myself" philosophy is rather false. I write for others. There is no reason for me to pen down the novels already in place in my mind, I can refer to them at any time. I only write out my ideas for others. And if I have no audience, I have no need to type it.
In the sense that my purpose for writing is different than that of a lot of other slash writers, feedback is essential- it is what fuels my writing. I also don't believe that people should be forced to write feedback. It just so happens that I really feel no need to write except to entertain others or, in rare cases, to share particularly interesting ideas I have. I'm selfish- I like to keep my stories in my head to refer to on my own. Posting a story is like posting a piece of myself that, if no one replies to or acknowledges, leaves me open for no reason.
Did that make sense? I'm not sure anyone is going to be able to understand my philosophy, especially when I'm having such trouble wording it correctly *G*
Re: Hmmmm...
Date: 2001-04-27 01:37 pm (UTC)If you read back far enough in people's journals, you'll find people saying that I'm a bitch who doesn't care about her list but has cronies who mislead people away from the list that dare not speak its name and onto metslash which is not geared to good fic. I find that highly insulting.
I'm glad you liked the dues bit. Spooks has said she liked it that someone called her a cult leader, so I would think she'd like that as well. However, what I heard was that someone nearly got in trouble over that snippet, which completely boggles the mind. I write what I want because I want to, not because anyone else prompts me to do it. I was insulted that whomever was enforcing this trouble thought that I write things at other people's urging.
As I said in response to Sel, I don't think my list policies are failing. My complaint about looking for good James/Kirk is somewhat directed at people on my list (although now some of us are writing James/Kirk, so that seems to be working out), but its also directed at anyone who's undertaking James/Kirk fic. I do hope that anyone who writes James/Kirk will attempt non-standard characterizations and plots. I also hope that people who write James/Kirk, or any other pairing, who know things about making webpages, like you, would put their fic up on their pages so that I can read it. My complaint about crossposting is a very selfish one, not only as a listmom who's worried about what's going on with her list, but also as a reader who wants to read any Metallica slash I can get my hot little hands on.
(no subject)
Date: 2001-04-27 01:40 pm (UTC)A few more miscellaneous thoughts that didn't fit elsewhere
Date: 2001-04-27 01:56 pm (UTC)The fact that people have taken what I've said here, in my personal journal as me, as something that reflects upon my abilities and policies as listmom proves the point that the listmom's word has a lot of power, whether or not she's speaking in official listmom capacity. I may not personally like Spooks, but if she wanted to join metslash, I'd let her (and don't think I haven't wondered if she's one of the past or present lurkers; we've already established that I'm an egomaniac when it comes to metslash). One thing has nothing to do with the other. However, I think, at least this was true when I was on the other list, that Spooks' word becomes law, in deed if not in official list policy. Spooks said she didn't like and wouldn't feedback crossovers, which felt like it was the official listmom punishment for writing a crossover, so consequently people were less enthusiastic about crossovers, and I always felt like that was criticism of me not based on my actual writing ability but based on the fact that I dared write about something Spooks didn't like.
Spooks has written more Metallica fic than anyone else, and she was the first to do it, so her characterizations have become the norm in Metallica slash. I'm not saying this is unique to Metallica; it happens in all fandoms. Any breaking away from or criticism of that norm on the other list, however, is, or at least was, looked down upon because it went against Spooky. Or at least that's the way it always felt to me. Your experience may differ.
Carol pointed out that I've written a lot of journal entries about this recently. I've been angry and bitter for a long time. I still am. I just feel like now I can write about it without reliving the awfulness of the experience in all its nervous breakdown glory.
It's me Kris
Date: 2001-04-27 03:17 pm (UTC)What amazes me is that you try to come off as this wonderfully peaceful, mature, responsible adult. That your list is so wonderful because you allow lurkers. Newsflash: Trashing other lists and it's members is neither peaceful nor mature, and I'd expect better from someone that is supposed to be a "list mom" I think that is what disgusts me the most about you and your behavior.
Moreover, to just clarify this situation about me leaving, I joined metslash, met Liz and she pointed me in the direction of tallific as she knew that I was not happy with metslash. For that, I'm more grateful then you could ever imagine. You may not agree with the way Spooky runs her list, but let me tell you, not one person on there is a snob, and more the 3 people post on a regular basis. I've made some really wonderful friends over there, and I've not even been there a month. To me, that says a hell of a lot more about tallific then metslash.
And most importantly, I actually feel ENCOURAGED to write for that list. I'm currently working on something now, and am actually looking foward to having Spooky beta it. Why? Because when it comes to critique, she is the most blatantly honest person I know. She will be more then happy to tell me if it's great..just the same as she'll tell me it stinks like last weeks garbage.
There's my .02
Re: Don't be bitter...and don't blame it on us...
Date: 2001-04-27 04:00 pm (UTC)But ask yourself why you are doing it. Why should she matter at all to you. You have stated you dont like her or her policies...why can't that be it. Why is there a crusade on your part to defend an imaginary problem? Cause if there was a problem...I believe more people would have left tallific.
Like i said this has become personal. If it wasn't personal You would have asked your list the question instead of posting it to your LJ.
If someone isnt confortable crossposting..they haven't said anything to me on list or off list. If they voice this to you...then they should voice it to one of us. I'd be happy to discuss it with whoever has a problem.
As for reading your journal and commenting on it...don't pretend that you don't know others read your journal. Come on now. I specifically commented that I don't give a fuck that you comment on us in "chat". I didn't even mention the journal, I only commented cause you posted. Like Ive said before...dont want an answer to your post. Then don't post. Or don't be suprised when someone does answer. Cause you and I both know you wouldn't have put it there if you didn't thinks someone would comment. come on now.
And you did quite specifically say that Spooks leads me around by a collar like a dog. You can say you didn't if you like...and As far as I know I personally have not refered to you leading anyone around by the nose. It's not something I worry about.
And who said they dare not speak the list name? We perfer that this does not fall into a flame war...and it stays off list. Why is that a problem? I'm confused at that point. Do people on your list constantly mention tallific? I doubt it.
Re: Don't be bitter...and don't blame it on us...
Date: 2001-04-27 05:37 pm (UTC)I didn't mean to imply that I don't want comments. I merely asked why you feel the need to read my journal if you think its all so stupid.
I know when I was on tallific (I was calling it "the list that dare not speak its name" in reference to the way that it supposedly tries to stay hidden from all and sundry), there was no way I ever felt comfortable talking to any of the three of you S's about what bothered me. I would think that there are other people who felt and do feel that way.
"And you did quite specifically say that Spooks leads me around by a collar like a dog."
Please do tell me when and where I said that. I quite frankly do not remember saying anything of the sort.
As I said in my miscellaneous comments, I'm writing about this because I'm angry and bitter and I feel like it's time for me to talk about it. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.
Re: It's me Kris
Date: 2001-04-27 05:45 pm (UTC)I'm glad you're happy on tallific. Despite what tallific people seem to believe, I'm not talking about this and I didn't start metslash out of some mean and spiteful urge to mess up their list. If you weren't happy on metslash, then leaving was the right thing to do. What bothers me about it is that you seem to think I am metslash. That's not true. I'm only one of 56 people on the list. I was unhappy on tallific long ago, and I left that list. I bitch about it because it still bothers me, and because this is my personal journal and I can talk about whatever I want to in it. You're doing the same thing. Good for you. Bitch about metslash if it makes you angry. Leave the list if you hate it. I did the same thing.
Re: Don't be bitter...and don't blame it on us...
Date: 2001-04-27 06:37 pm (UTC)Second. I didn't say you couldnt use your journal as you see fit. I didn't call it stupid. As a matter of fact, i payed no attention till I found out I was on your buddy list. I didn't say I didnt like it. I just commented. I don't go around telling people how they should feel. I will give my opinion on what they state if it effects me. They don't have to like it, or agree with it. It's as simple as that. I also don't view it as a personal attack. But I do speak my mind.
Third, well i don't know what to say as far as you not feeling comfortable with coming to me. I have had two or 3 people who have had a problem or a question come to me. I have also stated on list, that people can come to me...or discuss things that are bothering them on list. I think I'm fair...i try to be, but I'm far from perfect.
As far as the hidden part. It's a private list, and It's always been that way and I'm comfortable with that. The people who join the list seem comfortable. That was an upfront thing from the begining, it's never changed. There is a public one now...that people can join if they want their stuff to be public. I don't mind...its a matter of author choice. Just because it's not your choice does not make it a wrong or a bad one.
If there are rules and people accept them from the beginning when they join...then there is no problem...if people want something to change, and a majority feel that way...it's been decided as a list. By a vote. We have done it. But like anything else, If people don't vote...then they can't complain.
Re: It's me Kris--Kris Again
Date: 2001-04-27 07:08 pm (UTC)I know this is your journal. You can write whatever you want. But, if you didn't want people to see your journal, and see you bashing tallific, you'd write about it in a private journal. Come on now, who are you really kidding here? Nobody but yourself!
Your dragging in members of tallific by bashing them. What do you think? People are just going to sit idly by while you bash something that is important to them? There is a thing called loyalty. Not to mention, by Spooks having this no-lurking rule, it gives everyone the opportunity to get to know one another and to have fun here. Not only have 3 or 4 people out of 56 posting on a regular basis and snobbery being alive and well. If someone doesn't like the no-lurking rule, they can leave, nobody says they have to stay. Oh wait, you already know that don't you. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2001-04-27 08:36 pm (UTC)At this point, I feel the need to elaborate a little on why I unsubbed, because a lot of people still seem to think I'm co-moderator of metslash. This. Is. Not. So. When Ruth started metslash, I joined, because hey, it was [is] a Metallica slash list, and it allowed some things that tallific didn't, so by subbing to both lists, I'd get all or at least most stories.
I was, at that point, bothered about a number of tallific's policies, both official and unofficial ones, but I didn't talk about it, because the general list atmosphere seemed to indicate that no one would agree with me.
Then came the archiving policy. Looking back, I realise maybe I should've emailed the moderators informing them of my pov, namely that metlash was not a 'mirror list' of tallific, and that I thought the policy was ridiculous. Instead, I just said screw it and unsubbed. And yes, I was blunt about it. Yes, I said a lot of things I shouldn't've said. That was then, and I'm not bitter about that.
What I'm bitter about is the assumption that is very clear in all these comments, that metslash 'works' the same way tallific does -- or at least did when I left.
This may be a shock to some people, but none of us bitter ex-tallificcers are spouting off venomous lies about The Other List. If someone asks, I will try to give them my pov of what happened, clearly warning them this is all my side of the story and yours is prolly different, and just as valid. I don't go around telling people about "this other list, who are sooooooo evil because of thisnthat," and in fact I prefer not to get newbies dragged into this whole mess.
Also, when Ruth and I were having a fight, this had no effect on metslash, nor did it make Ruth an evil, overbearing bitch, or any of us her [abandoning] 'cronies'. We were having a one-against-one fight, and the fact that Spooky somehow concluded that meant the list was falling apart, and called me a 'follower', hurt me deeply.
What I'm also bitter and angry about is the fact that a lot of you apparently cannot make the distinction between criticism and bashing, between 'bashing' a listmom as a person and 'bashing' her list policies, between 'bashing' the dominant way of writing a certain pairing and 'bashing' that pairing and all that like it, etc. etc. etc.
[More in follow-up, because LJ won't let me post this in its entirety.]
(no subject)
Date: 2001-04-27 08:37 pm (UTC)As far as the hidden part. It's a private list, and It's always been that way and I'm comfortable with that. But it has changed. If nothing else, the archive has gone way more 'hidden' than it was, even to the point of being deleted for no logical reason because you don't want to be discovered. This is why we talk about The List That Dare Not Speak Its Name. Because if you don't even have the guts to post under your 'real' *pseud* in defense of Metallica slash, we have no reason to assume you'd appreciate being publicised on LJ -- because every child can figure out how to derive the list URL from its name.
Then there was the archive thing, as I've described above, and as I've clearly said in the emails I sent you back when I left, this was not about official list policy, but rather about general list 'feeling' that negative sentiments should not be expressed, and if they had to be, it should be off-list. [Because heavens forbid a list policy should be discussed between members, and then voted upon.]
Kris -- Being forced to post feedback or a story is not my idea of 'having fun'. I prefer a list where I can post if I'm in a talkative mood, and lurk when I'm broody, and no one will come up to me and tell me to participate or be unsubbed.
And I don't understand why you perceive metslash as 'snobbish'. Why? Just because people aren't forced to talk doesn't mean they're not allowed to.
Kris--response to Sofie
Date: 2001-04-27 09:29 pm (UTC)Here's what it all boils down to. Tallific is a list that is for writers. Point blank. If you don't write, then find another list. It's really that simple. Now, how much sense does it make to complain about a list that is for WRITERS that requires WRITERS to WRITE?
Re: response to Sofie and Kris.- Hamlet
Date: 2001-04-27 10:33 pm (UTC)I had friends who didn't ask Liz about me as much as some of the people on the list. Liz for those of you who don't know, is my best friend in the world and the one person who has stood by me through everything...Well anyways there I am laid up in the hospital and the day I go in for surgery one list member draws me a get well card and sends it through Liz and a lot of the members sent along thier well wishes...Like I said earlier I don't have friends in RL who cared that much about me.
Well anyways I missed dues, and yet I am still on the list...I just had to let them know the reason I wasn't posting at that point in time...
Re: It's me Kris--Kris Again, Liz here
Date: 2001-04-27 10:46 pm (UTC)As far as comments about other lists in LJ's I think it is a little immature to take your frustrations out in public like this...
I also think that there is a lot of snobbery that goes on in Metslash, mostly due to the fact that because I am not a fan of certain pairings I am an outsider...and in tallific I have never been made to feel that way.
As for your attacking Kris...well I think that that is a little petty. It is wrong for you to attack people you barely know...I am loyal, and when you become my friend you stay that way until you break my trust, and you all know what you did to betray that trust.