What am I, chopped liver?

[rsadelle]

No offense meant to chopped liver or the people who like it.

There have been several conversations about constructive criticism floating around recently. In all of them, people have said to me, in response to constructive crit, "How would you feel if someone did to you what you just did to this author?" My response is, "I'd love it," which is absolutely true. I would love it if someone would take one of my stories (preferably a newer one; I know where much of my older fic sucks) and tear it apart. And yet, despite the many times I've said this, no one has.

Are they sticking to their idea that constructive crit, especially when you dare openly say you don't like something, is evil and mean and should therefore not be done? Am I really such a good writer that they can't find things to criticize? Do they just not care about my writing enough to do it?

There have also been several conversations, although not as recent, about what constitutes a ridiculous pairing. No one ever mentioned James Hetfield/Eminem. I think that's a rather unbelievable pairing. Was the story good enough that the unbelievability of it wasn't noticeable? Was it not quite bad enough to warrant being singled out as a bad example? Was it mediocre enough to slip under everyone's radar?

I wonder if part of the reason no one ever critiques my writing is because I don't have a feedback header anymore. I stopped using it when I really got sick of the "if you don't send me feedback telling me how great this is, not only are you a bad person, but I'll never write again" attitude that many writers imbue their feedback headers with. I don't want to contribute to that. I don't want to beg for feedback. I don't want to guilt trip people into writing feedback. I don't want to blackmail people into writing feedback. I don't want this entry to sound like I'm pouting because I don't get certain types of feedback. I want people to write me feedback if and when they have something to say about my stories. I just wish there were some way for me to make it clear that I welcome thoughts on what doesn't work without sounding like I'm demanding feedback.

Comments

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. I don't have a specific 'feedback' line anymore, either, much for the same reasons as you. I'm gonna try adding a feedback line again, explicitely asking oneliners be sent offlist, and in-depth critique onlist. Even if it won't help, it'll be a clear statement.

[rsadelle]

I think it's gotten so bad that any type of feedback line feels like asking for feedback, which is most emphatically not what I want to do.

I know.

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

It's so fucking sad. I seem to remember fandom being a lot 'better' about this sort of thing. Is my memory skewed or did things really deteriorate really fast?

If I could, I would

[coneyislandbaby]

My problem is I don't think I could do constructive criticism. I mean, I can do it on a beta level, I'm actually quite good at ferreting out the grammar, spelling and characterisation flaws, but I have difficulty doing it in a finished story. I don't know why this is, but I know I can't do it, because I've sat down and tried with a few random stories from various fandoms. I find it really difficult to do. I can't help but wonder if that's not a part of it, too. Do people truly not understand how to give that kind of criticism outside of being a beta reader? I do remember a couple of comments like that in the PC list discussion, perhaps it truly is that many people don't understand the reasons for criticism after a story has been posted.

As for a feedback header, I don't put anything specific either. I haven't for a long time. I'm at the point where I honestly will take any comments I can get, positive, negative, one-liners, whatever (obviously excluding flames, though I wouldn't mind one or two of those to laugh at *g*, the old ones aren't as funny as they used to be). I just put my email on the story, and half the time I think that's for the occasional archiving request more than anything else.

Re: If I could, I would

[rsadelle]

One of the points Nick made in the conversation on PhoenixCrowe was that what Molly did with Nightrunner's story was basically a beta, and that's not what people want on a finished product. The story ought to already have been beta read by the time you post it. If it's not, then you should expect a beta-like critique. Perhaps your problem with critiquing something that's finished is that you expect it to be finished and as good as it can be once it's posted.

Perhaps you ought to think of it as reviewing something you've read. You don't always like everything about every book you read, and the same goes for fic. The difference is that if you don't like it in fic, you can tell the author about that, and it may affect her writing for the better. You don't get to do that with authors of professionally published works.

Re: If I could, I would

[coneyislandbaby]

That was what I was thinking of.

You could be right.

The thing is, with the books I don't care for, after reading a section of them, I don't bother reading further. For a short book (under 200 pages) I give it twenty pages and if I'm not captivated, I move onto something else. Longer books get a hundred or so pages. I don't read books that I don't like, and I rarely read fanfic that I don't like. I don't think I'm qualified to critique something I couldn't finish, and most of what I finish works for me. Not always perfectly, of course.

Re: If I could, I would

[rsadelle]

Nothing ever works perfectly. If you're writing to tell someone what you liked about her story, why not throw in a thing or two that didn't work as well? It will help her be a better writer.

Re: If I could, I would

[coneyislandbaby]

I have done that. I don't really consider that to be criticism, just pointing out the occasional thing that doesn't work. I tend to do that in offlist feedback, though I've done it a couple of times in onlist feedback, and they're usually only small bits of canon or reality that don't quite fit. Sometimes that's been deliberate on their part and I don't want to say that it's wrong in public when I've done that myself in fic to fit what I wanted to write better (I'm not against that idea, I just like the writers to say it up front so I don't get confused *g*).

Re: If I could, I would

[rsadelle]

If you can tease out why it doesn't work, and tell the author that, then it becomes more constructive.

Re: If I could, I would

[coneyislandbaby]

I've actually just come to a realisation. I usually feedback as I go through my email, although I've usually read the stories through a couple of times by then, and I usually do just do a quick praise/other comments type of thing. But I haven't been doing that so much recently, due in part to my refusal to read WIPs and RL having just recently been rather annoying. And I've re-read stories I'm going to feedback several times. I've actually been able to tease out why some things didn't quite work for me. I didn't realise this before, and it's interesting.

Re: If I could, I would

[rsadelle]

Serious crit does take a lot of time and energy, and some amount of training. I don't expect everyone to have that time, energy, or training. I know that not everyone's going to write serious crit. It is something you can learn, and if you do, more power to you. My real problem is when people are discouraged from writing or posting serious crit.

Re: If I could, I would

[coneyislandbaby]

Well, that can be a problem because people don't know what serious crit is, and I do think it can come off as a flame, even if that isn't the intention, to the other person. It's not the critic's perception that's wrong, it's the author's. And that is, I think, a part of why authors take crit so badly, that their perception of it is skewed. I think it's because there are so many people without any literary background (hell, most of mine is simply reading a lot, but I do think about what I read and why I like it or don't like it) in fandom.

And the discouragement thing is why I think it's important to have some kind of guideline. There are people who don't mind if you criticise their fic, but for various reasons prefer it offlist (I know several on various lists who feel that way), whereas some people don't mind if you do it onlist.

Unfortunately, there isn't a fandom-agreed guideline for this kind of thing, not even a heavily established convention like death or rape warnings, so I think that it will forever be a bone of contention in fandom *sigh*.

About James/Eminem

[coneyislandbaby]

I don't know why. I meant to point it out myself in one of the discussions, but I kept forgetting to. Maybe people just missed that one, who knows? Or maybe like me they did share the fantasy?

Just some thoughts.

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

In my case, it's mostly a matter of not knowing what to say. I know how to critisise mediocre and bad stories, but stories like yours, that've been beta'd and beta'd again, are much harder. I end up pointing out what I particularily liked, and especially in *ahem* a certain fandom, that could be misinterprted as me praising you cause you're my friend.

I think people in general are just afraid of saying anything negative anymore for fear of being accused of flaming. Even pointing out what doesn't work, as Joanne does, is a risk these days. [God, I've become an old hag!] I don't get any serious feedback either, except from you lot.

I've been thinking about a good way to emphasise in my fic header that I want in-depth critique, but it all comes out sounding whiny or bitchy or bitter. Which I am, but people don't need to know that. <g>

[rsadelle]

stories like yours, that've been beta'd and beta'd again, are much harder.

Yeah, because then you don't even have grammar and spelling errors to concentrate on. I am fairly fanatical about making my fic as close to perfect as I can, so I can see how it would be harder to find things that don't work. I think what I need to get serious constructive crit is for someone who doesn't like my style/plots to write me some.

that could be misinterprted as me praising you cause you're my friend.

I worry about this too. I generally only write positive things in response to Nette, but it's not because she's my friend. It's because I beta read for her, so anything that I think doesn't work has already been ironed out by the time the story gets posted.

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

I thinkk that might be a good idea, yes. Because our ideas on what's a good plot, what works, and what is a fluid style may be too close together for me to be really critical.