The vagaries of feedback.

[rsadelle]

I'm taking a class entitled "Feminism and Political Theory." Today, our discussion was on Patricia Hill Collins' ideas about Black feminist epistemology. Our assignment for Thursday is to think of an example to which her four part model of Black feminist epistemology applies. I thought of my example during class: feedback. The two parts to which the idea of feedback truly pertain are dialogue and the ethic of accountability. Dialogue is important, because, as Collins says, "For ideas to be tested and validated, everyone in the group must participate. To refuse to join in, especially if one really disagrees with what has been said, is seen as 'cheating.'" In our discussion in class, part of what we talked about in terms of accountability in an academic community is that if you write something, and someone then writes something either building upon your idea or disagreeing with it, it is your responsability to then respond seriously to that person.

Now, I'm not one of those people who thinks you must write feedback to be a good person. Although I put my e-mail address on all my stories, I no longer use a specific feedback header. I do, however, love feedback, both receiving and giving it.

There are three pieces of feedback that I've received that immediately come to mind when thinking back on the feedback I've received. One was from a woman who'd read one of my Langly/Byers stories and written to say that although she wasn't really a fan of LGM slash, she would read any that I should write. That was obviously a boost to my ego, especially as it was one of my earlier stories. The second was from Joanne, in which she asked, "Is this from something in reality or just for the fic?" For that fic, that was the perfect question, because it gave me the perfect starting point from which I could talk about what bothered me in the feel of that particular fic and way of dealing with that pairing. The third was Nette's analysis of "Long Way Down." I'd had the feeling as I worked on it that it might just be sentimental crap, but Nette managed to tease out all the things I'd managed to hide in it, specifically the patterned nature of the action. I believe in answering all feedback, but I always take special care in answering these types of feedback, the kinds that take time and thought. It's hardly fair if someone takes a great deal of time out of her life to write to me, and I don't write back.

I like to write feedback not because of the same line of reasoning--someone spent time to write it and we all should, to be worthy of continued living, write back to her--but rather because I get to do things I love--analyze literature (but only as a hobby), discuss writing and, possibly, help people be better writers. I put a lot of time and energy into feedback because it's something that's important to me. I expect people to put at least some portion of that same time and energy into writing back to me--I expect them to adhere to the ethic of personal accountability and to realize the importance of dialogue. I recently sent feedback to a friend of mine, in part asking her why she'd done something with a character. She told me in chat that it was because that was what the character wanted, which is a perfectly valid answer, but I feel cheated because that's the only answer she gave. I guess what I wanted, what I expected was more than that. I wanted her to look at what I said about a possible reason and tell me whether that made sense to her or not.

There's another piece in all of this. A Fred Durst/Eminem story was recently posted to RS-X. Normally, I would be delighted, because I love Fred/Em as a couple. In this case, however, I couldn't even get through this story. The author violates a basic principle of fic writing: stick to one verb tense. At first, it annoyed me, but then I thought maybe she's doing it for a reason; maybe each one of them gets a different verb tense, but that's not the case. It's simply a jumble of past and present with no rhyme or reason to it. My normal response to this would simply be to ignore the story and go on with my life, however, a few people have since posted feedback telling the author what a wonderful story it is. That horrifies me, and now I feel like I ought to read the entire story and write my own feedback outlining both the good and the bad. One of the authors I've worked with has told me that she does know something about writing as evidenced by the fact that people write excessively positive feedback about her writing. I've read much of that feedback, and, most of the time, I disagree with it. That's why I'm so willing to put in all of the time and energy needed to help her improve her writing. If people onlist are going to read feedback extolling the virtues of a fic, it ought to be a well-written, well-thought out, well-crafted story, not just anything that wanders into your inbox. Not taking the time to point where and why I strongly disagree with the uniformly positive feedback would most certainly be cheating.

Comments

[arkane156.livejournal.com]

I say go for it. I've seen what happens in fandoms where the only feedback allowed is unconditional praise, and it ain't pretty.

I've come to the conclusion that honest feedback is healthier for everybody in the long run, in an emotional sense as well as an artistic one. I base this theory on the havoc that ensued when Prospect-L started up in Sentinel fandom, and on the brouhaha that occured on the Harry Potter slash list a while ago, and on my own bitchings in the Slash Hall of Shame guestbook (it was a Due South author that set me off). I think if people were allowed to feel comfortable talking frankly about things that don't work for them in fic, then they wouldn't let their annoyance build up to the point where they snap and say things that really are irrational and hurtful. And on the same note, writers could get used to the idea that crit isn't necessarily a bad thing, and maybe so many of them wouldn't take it as a personal attack, and overall they'd have a more pleasant fannish experience.

Just my $0.11.

And here I was thinking I'd just missed something *g*

[coneyislandbaby]

You know, the whole point to that question (and I cringe that I said just for the fic, as if it weren't a valid choice for the fic) was that I honestly thought I'd missed something in my obsessive reading about Ben and Casey, and I wondered what your sources had been if it was based in reality.

You know, much as I love that fic, I still have trouble seeing Casey as that dependent on Ben. But that's probably my own view of Casey more than anything else, and I can certainly suspend it for that particular universe.

I'm really glad to have been the catalyst for you thinking and articulating on what you thought about that story.

I really enjoy it when people talk about their motives for writing something beyond the standard "The characters won't leave me alone" that we all understand. I love it when there's more to it.

For me, personally, a lot of your questions are invaluable to me as a writer, making me question what I write and why I write it, and I just want to thank you for that. I may not always agree, but I do always listen/read and I appreciate every moment you spend on talking about writing, whether to me or someone else. I almost always learn something from your posts, unless it's something we've already been over.

I do have one question. I personally agree with you on the verb tenses in that particular story, but I'm curious as to why you use the term horrified in reference to the positive feedback onlist. For me, when I send positive feedback, I send it because I liked the story, whether or not I felt there was room for improvement. Perhaps the people who commented positively felt the same way?

That said, I just read your onlist comments and I'm glad you posted them. I don't think anyone could possibly have a problem with that feedback, you weren't mean, you weren't bitchy, you simply stated what could be improved, and you said what you liked first (I like that concept, btw, it's much better to read the good stuff first, IMO).

Horror at unrestrained positive feedback

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not Ruth, but I can understand horror at the abovementioned phenomenon. The problem with unrestrictedly positive feedback for something which is badly performed(without regard to the ideas being expressed or understood) is that the person being lauded has no reason to believe that anything was done badly. All but the most egotistical of us realize that there is room for improvement in writing, but there is a difference between not doing something at the highest level and butchering the art form. There may be disagreement as to what constitutes good writing or good fanfiction (not necessarily the same thing). At a minimum, however, I think most of us can agree that we should let an author know when the mechanics of her writing are poorly executed to the point where it is difficult to understand what they intended to convey or unintentionally drives away grammatically-sensitive readers, readers who might otherwise be inclined to judge her work on the merits of content and style.

A key here, I think, is intent and self-awareness on the part of the author. It's one thing if someone chooses to experiment with form, knowing that in doing so she obscures her meaning and narrows her audience. It's another issue altogether if an author is blind to the confusion and discontent she rouses in her potential audience. It's somewhat like letting someone who has never used a fork loose in a posh Italian restaurant with a bowlful of spaghetti. They'll make a mess of themselves, but they won't know how, why, or how to stop unless someone explains it to them, and it's not very nice of their seatmates to let them embarrass themself accidentally.

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<p>I'm not Ruth, but I can understand horror at the abovementioned phenomenon. The problem with unrestrictedly positive feedback for something which is badly performed(without regard to the ideas being expressed or understood) is that the person being lauded has no reason to believe that anything was done badly. All but the most egotistical of us realize that there is room for improvement in writing, but there is a difference between not doing something at the highest level and butchering the art form. There may be disagreement as to what constitutes good writing or good fanfiction (not necessarily the same thing). At a minimum, however, I think most of us can agree that we should let an author know when the mechanics of her writing are poorly executed to the point where it is difficult to understand what they intended to convey or unintentionally drives away grammatically-sensitive readers, readers who might otherwise be inclined to judge her work on the merits of content and style.</p>
<p>A key here, I think, is <em>intent and self-awareness</em> on the part of the author. It's one thing if someone chooses to experiment with form, knowing that in doing so she obscures her meaning and narrows her audience. It's another issue altogether if an author is blind to the confusion and discontent she rouses in her potential audience. It's somewhat like letting someone who has never used a fork loose in a posh Italian restaurant with a bowlful of spaghetti. They'll make a mess of themselves, but they won't know how, why, or how to stop unless someone explains it to them, and it's not very nice of their seatmates to let them embarrass themself accidentally.</p>
<p style:"text-align: right; font-style: italic"><a href="http://www.slashx-files.com/wq/">WitchQueen</a></p>

Reason to be horrified

[rsadelle]

In another book I'm reading for the same class, Catharine MacKinnon's Toward a Feminist Theory of the State, says that in Western philosphical tradition, the truth is found "When it speaks and there is silence." If no one disagrees, then people will most likely assume that everyone simply agrees with what's been said. That's why I always join into discussions when I strongly disagree, and why I feel so strongly that overwhelmingly positive feedback should not be the only feedback out there.